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Discussion of features in Mozilla Firefox
sessamoid
 
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Post Posted November 26th, 2002, 8:52 am

Thanks guys, but this discussion isn't supposed to be a how-to on xml. We're talking here about what we think the default/optional behavior of the browser should be. I just put forward the reasons I think the feedback shoud be exactly where the user's eyes and cursor already are. Has anybody put up a good reason this should not be so? Any reason why you think this isn't better interface design?

Stefan

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Post Posted November 26th, 2002, 9:02 am

laszlo wrote:This is exactly what the W3C says: it's not the job of the application to override, it's yours, the user's.


You beat me to that exact point. Putting the user in controll != breaking webpages in the application by default.

The hierarchy from top to bottom is:

User
Webpage
App default

Stefan

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Post Posted November 26th, 2002, 9:05 am

sessamoid wrote: Has anybody put up a good reason this should not be so? Any reason why you think this isn't better interface design?


It breaks the webauthours wishes by default for no good reason, not to mention it is already visable in a number of places.
You want it your way, just add the USER override.

michel v

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Post Posted November 26th, 2002, 9:08 am

You can't have your cake and eat it too.
The loading progress is already available with the stop button appearance, the throbber, and more precisely the status bar. If you decide to hide these UI elements, you can't complain that you don't have access to their function.

sessamoid
 
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Post Posted November 26th, 2002, 9:41 am

Stefan wrote:
sessamoid wrote: Has anybody put up a good reason this should not be so? Any reason why you think this isn't better interface design?


It breaks the webauthours wishes by default for no good reason, not to mention it is already visable in a number of places.
You want it your way, just add the USER override.


I've given what I thought were good reasons, but you've declared then invalid without explanation.

Besides, the example given above doesn't provide the same functionality I'm describing. Even the audible click would be a nice option.

sessamoid
 
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Post Posted November 26th, 2002, 9:43 am

michel v wrote:You can't have your cake and eat it too.
The loading progress is already available with the stop button appearance, the throbber, and more precisely the status bar. If you decide to hide these UI elements, you can't complain that you don't have access to their function.


I'm not sure who you were talking to, but I wasn't the one who hid the above UI elements. I have all those displayed, I just find them cumbersome compared to the alternative I've proposed, either audible or visual.

laszlo

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Post Posted November 26th, 2002, 10:40 am

sessamoid wrote:Besides, the example given above doesn't provide the same functionality I'm describing. Even the audible click would be a nice option.

It may not be the same and it's no flashy animation, but it does what you propose: it raises the feedback when a user clicks a link at exactly the point the user has its eyes on in that very moment. The following makes it even more clear:
Code: Select all
a:active {
  color: red !important;
  -moz-outline: 1px solid red !important;
}

I agree that some users (not necessarily with bad eyesight) might benefit from an option of having audible feedback though.

Stefan

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Post Posted November 26th, 2002, 2:30 pm

sessamoid wrote:Besides, the example given above doesn't provide the same functionality I'm describing. Even the audible click would be a nice option.


Well go read the CSS spec and add your click sound then...

http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/aural.html


And for you animation, tinker around with

http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/generate.html#x5
and
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/generate. ... ef-content

and you should be able to add it too.

sessamoid
 
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Post Posted November 26th, 2002, 5:46 pm

Stefan wrote:
Well go read the CSS spec and add your click sound then...

http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/aural.html


And for you animation, tinker around with

http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/generate.html#x5
and
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/generate. ... ef-content

and you should be able to add it too.


Are you being obstinate on purpose? I already said that I'm not looking for a how-to, but trying to discuss a proposed enhancement.

sessamoid
 
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Post Posted November 26th, 2002, 5:57 pm

laszlo wrote:
sessamoid wrote:Besides, the example given above doesn't provide the same functionality I'm describing. Even the audible click would be a nice option.

It may not be the same and it's no flashy animation, but it does what you propose: it raises the feedback when a user clicks a link at exactly the point the user has its eyes on in that very moment. The following makes it even more clear:


It's close, but it's not quite what I'm proposing. I'd guess you've never paid much attention to the mac GUI before? The code you've provided is nice, and thank you, but not what I was talking about. What I'm talking about (and what the Mac GUI's have always done so nicely) is give immediate and local visual confirmation that the item you intended to selected has been selected. The code you have given only turns the link text a different color when the mouse button is depressed, which is not the same as acknowledging that a link is actually being followed.

A specific example: There are plenty of web forums who have multi-page threads, which you can only navigate through with tiny little numbers denoting the page numbers, or very small little arrow graphics (which your example doesn't help with at all). Given your example, the text turns red if you click down on the tiny link, but if you move the mouse even a pixel before you let go of the mouse button you won't actually have selected the link. The text will still have turned red, so there's no immediate indication that what the user tried to do has failed.

A lot of thought, money, and testing went into the Mac GUI, and all I'm proposing is that we take one of the better parts of that design to make the browser a better experience. So please no more, "well if you want it that way, just do this and shut up." If you have reasoned answers why you think the current way is superior and that the reasons I've given are invalid please state them.

<edited for clarity>

laszlo

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Post Posted November 26th, 2002, 7:23 pm

sessamoid, I simply underestimated how important this is for you. I don't own a Mac, and I deal with Macs less than once a week, but I couldn't say that I was ever especially fond of the way things look and work there. This probably makes me belong to a minority, but I for myself disable as much animation and audible feedback as I can in UIs wherever possible, because they usually tend to make things slower than they need to be even on the fastest machines and they're getting on my nerves pretty fast, so it's also a matter of taste. Btw, if I'd wanted you to shut up, I'd said so, believe me.

You seem to disregard that a link in the content window is not really a part of the application's UI, nor are form elements, even if they're rendered as if they were. Let me summarize my standpoint on this: If the feedback (however it's implemented) when clicking a link preserves the author's style, it can be on by default for my part. If it doesn't, it must be off by default to preserve the cascade, which is part of a concept into which also went a "lot of thought, money and testing" (well, probably not as much money and testing as went into the Mac GUI, but anyway). In any case the user must have a choice to turn this feature on and off at will.

flii

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Post Posted November 26th, 2002, 7:25 pm

does mac have any option to turn the sounds off? this part is ot, but i'm curious.

on topic, now. ;) i think what's getting said on your opposing side is that most people don't want sounds, and i know i'm one of them. when considering if sounds should be an option in phoenix, it's been hammered into my thick skull that each little enhancement adds up on phoenix's file size, and in order for a feature to be put into the main phoenix code, a heck of a lot of people had better want it.

i mentioned before that maybe sounds and visual clues could be made into an extension, because i don't think it will be implemented in any releases if more people don't want it than do want it. i wish i could help you more on that part, but i've never downloaded, much less used, an extension yet. maybe one of these other helpful (*cough* hehe) people can direct you further if you want to pursue it. good luck. ;)

flii

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Post Posted November 26th, 2002, 7:29 pm

laszlo wrote:(...)I couldn't say that I was ever especially fond of the way things look and work there (macs). This probably makes me belong to a minority, but I for myself disable as much animation and audible feedback as I can in UIs wherever possible(...)

same here. my first computer experience for at least a year was on macs, and i didn't like it either. the only sounds i want on my computer are from winamp or my chat programs.

Stefan

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Post Posted November 27th, 2002, 12:44 am

sessamoid wrote:
Stefan wrote:
Well go read the CSS spec and add your click sound then...

http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/aural.html


And for you animation, tinker around with

http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/generate.html#x5
and
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/generate. ... ef-content

and you should be able to add it too.


Are you being obstinate on purpose? I already said that I'm not looking for a how-to, but trying to discuss a proposed enhancement.


???
I replied to your silly remark that "the solution presented doesn't work" is inaccurate.
How does that make ME obstinate?
Possibly you should lable yourself obstinate becuse of your agressive reply when shown to be wrong...

sessamoid
 
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Joined: November 10th, 2002, 6:12 pm

Post Posted November 27th, 2002, 6:52 am

Stefan wrote:???
I replied to your silly remark that "the solution presented doesn't work" is inaccurate.
How does that make ME obstinate?
Possibly you should lable yourself obstinate becuse of your agressive reply when shown to be wrong...


My apologies if you were being intentionally aggressive yourself. By your name I guess that English is not your native language?

The way you opened the remark with "go read this and do such and such then" comes across as very condescending, as it's usually used in such situations as a rather rigid command (e.g. "go take a flying leap/long walk off a short pier."). I read the rest of your post with that coloration. Besides, and I tried the code presented, and it didn't do what I wanted, and I explained why it didn't. Are you trying to tell me it did?

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