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userChrome.css may be next on the chopping block

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the-edmeister

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Post Posted December 17th, 2017, 3:38 pm

BobbyPhoenix wrote:"userChrome.css may be next on the chopping block" Just giving my 2 cents. I don't think userChrome (and userContent for that matter) will go away. Even if people are breaking things with them.


If you haven't read that 1416044 Bug report "Add telemetry for userChrome.css usage" yet, please do so. But whatever you do please don't post any comments, which might cause that report to get hidden from view for all but the developers involved.

A Telemetry probe for the presence of a userChrome.css file was added to for 58.0b11 and once they see how many users have that file they may start grabbing the files size or maybe start looking into what parts of Firefox it affects by "scraping" some of the larger files they stumble across. From there they could start blocking specific types of CSS code if they don't like what they see. From there it is a very small step to just eliminating that option altogether; not as a doomsday prophesy but as a continuation of what Mozilla has already done in the last 6 or 7 years.

I am blocking Telemetry and hope other users do too, to throw a wrench into their plans to snoop inside my Firefox Profile. But that may turn out to be us shooting our self in the foot - IOW backfire on us due to a lack of "real world" data from experienced users who can handle working with userChrome.css and to not create "user induced" problems.

My overall "trust" of Mozilla to do the right thing for its long term, more experienced users disappeared a long time ago either with Firefox 4.0 or Firefox 29; and if not then it, disappeared with the signing "feature" and how poorly that was rolled out. The latest version that I use everyday is Firefox 47.0.1 while my most used version is ESR 38.7.1 .
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Frank Lion

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Post Posted December 17th, 2017, 4:06 pm

BobbyPhoenix wrote:voids any responsibility of Mozilla." Think of it as a warranty being voided for modifying anything that the warranty says you

Says me, I can do what I like, modify what I like with an Open Source program - try checking the licence sometime. ;)

can't do for a TV, computer, Car, smartphone, etc.

Not Open Source applications

You wouldn't crack open your new Galaxy Note to remove the paint on the back to make it transparent, and while doing so ripped a wire/connection off of the motherboard, and expect Samsung to take responsibility would you?

Not an Open Source application.

Getting the drift of how this stuff works? Basic research next time maybe?
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BobbyPhoenix

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Post Posted December 17th, 2017, 4:29 pm

Frank Lion wrote:
Getting the drift of how this stuff works? Basic research next time maybe?


Easy there killer. All I was saying was if the user does something to their own product they use they can't blame anyone but themselves. Open source or not. Do what you want on your own. You break it? It's your own fault. Don't complain to Mozilla (which I've seen a couple of times on the net) to remove a feature you shouldn't touch if you don't know what's going to happen. Just like about:config. I guess that would be next to go away.
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smsmith
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Post Posted December 17th, 2017, 5:04 pm

BobbyPhoenix wrote:All I was saying was if the user does something to their own product they use they can't blame anyone but themselves. Open source or not. Do what you want on your own. You break it? It's your own fault.

The problem is, the users that muck it up are going to tell all their friends, and their friends friends that Firefox sucks. Remember the "Firefox is so slow" days? Turns out it most of it was caused by Firebug, which a large majority of the people that were using Firefox when doing web development work had installed. And they told all their friends, and their friends friends that Firefox was slow without knowing Firebug was the cause, and the decline of the Firefox user base was started. Now, anytime Mozilla sees something that could cause the user base to "break their installation" they are going to actively work to prevent it. That's why user customization in Fx 29 was locked down, because people were removing things from the toolbars, couldn't figure out how to turn it back on and told their friends and their friends friends that Firefox sucked.
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Frank Lion

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Post Posted December 17th, 2017, 5:24 pm

BobbyPhoenix wrote:All I was saying was if the user does something to their own product they use they can't blame anyone but themselves. Open source or not. Do what you want on your own. You break it? It's your own fault.

You certainly have a talent for stating the self evident.

When you wander in on a situation where the solution seems blindingly obvious, then that is the time to pause and reflect on what you might have missed.

smsmith wrote: Remember the "Firefox is so slow" days? Turns out it most of it was caused by Firebug, which a large majority of the people that were using Firefox when doing web development work had installed.

I certainly remember that some at Mozilla tried to spin it that way. I also remember that the actual web developers didn't see it like that -

https://hacks.mozilla.org/2010/06/resul ... -survey-2/

I also recall that extensions could be just one of many reasons why Firefox was running slow - http://kb.mozillazine.org/Firefox_hangs


That's why user customization in Fx 29 was locked down, because people were removing things from the toolbars, couldn't figure out how to turn it back on

At the time, Mozilla were asked about 20 times separately on Bugzilla to provide the statistical data/evidence that they were basing that statement on and were unable to do so.

It's worth noting that even Mozilla couldn't think up a justifiable reason for removing 'Icons and Text' and 'Text Only' modes or spaces, separators and flexible spaces in Firefox 29.

***


The point is, this thread is about userChrome.css and therube has already linked to what I think on this and when - viewtopic.php?p=14783343#p14783343 and I have nothing to add to that.

Stick more to userChrome.css talk and less to 'other stuff' and I don't need to post here at all, which sounds good to me. ;)
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therube

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Post Posted December 18th, 2017, 12:34 pm

Bobby wrote:userChrome on the other hand is a direct modification by the user. If the user changes something then it's on the user, and user alone.

Extension are a direct modification by the user facilitated by an extension author. If the user changes something (even if by way of extension) then it's on the user, and user alone.
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therube

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Post Posted December 18th, 2017, 12:42 pm

justifiable reason for removing 'Icons and Text'

That's easy, because having both icons & text was too incomprehensible, slowing down as users interaction with the browser.
(I say that as my browser shows both icons and text ;-).)
Now, instead I have these wonderful hieroglyphics, that I pull out my handy-dandy Hieroglyphs for Complete Beginners guide (only 19.99 at Amazon), so I'm set :-).
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Frank Lion

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Post Posted December 18th, 2017, 1:04 pm

therube wrote:If the user changes something (even if by way of extension) then it's on the user, and user alone.

Wouldn't it be better if you and cornfed read up on this stuff first before imparting your pearls of non-wisdom here?

It is 'on the user' whether the user modifies, changes or just uses Firefox. That is what the legal term "AS IS" refers to in the Mozilla Firefox End-User Software License Agreement - Version 3.0.


@ therube - unless you want to end up wearing your hieroglyphics for a hat, I'd bring this thread back to the subject of userChrome.css, if I were you. :)
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therube

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Post Posted December 18th, 2017, 2:22 pm

(When there's a will, there's a way, https://www.google.com/search?q=hierogl ... CjYQ_AUIBQ.)
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Frank Lion

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Post Posted December 18th, 2017, 3:12 pm

therube wrote:(When there's a will, there's a way, https://www.google.com/search?q=hierogl ... CjYQ_AUIBQ.)

Bugger me, I swear you get worse each day.
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therube

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Post Posted January 27th, 2018, 5:17 am

Oh, I'm sure I'm reading these out of context.

"> That is funny though. Forcing users to use the userChrome.css, as many
> add-ons are no longer available in "Quantum". Then Saying it might be a time
> bomb implying the suggestion to no longer allow userChrome.css

I'm not sure where you are getting this idea? The act of measuring usage doesn't imply any intention to remove a feature. Regardless, this is not the place for this kind of discussion."
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1416044

"This will not fully stop the userchrome.js hack (which was never official nor publicly supported) from working, though I am sure that people will find a way around it and keep it working. userchrome.js will eventually stop working altogether when we remove XBL down the road."
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1428938
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Post Posted January 29th, 2018, 7:36 pm

Not supported means that we will not actively support it, yes.

This isn't a new stance. These are undocumented features that happen to still work, but are no longer part of any official customization system. The functionality of userContent.css can mostly be duplicated using extension APIs. The functionality of userChrome.css will not be supported, for the same reasons that we removed support for legacy themes.

Support will probably be completely removed from Firefox in the future, yes, but there are no immediate plans to do so.


https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1431962#c3

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