MozillaZine

Very problematic bugs that persist, confuse, detract a lot

Discussion of bugs in Seamonkey
CappuchinoMan
 
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Post Posted November 24th, 2002, 8:54 am

Some bugs that really need fixing to increase satisfaction with Mozilla:

Find feature in Bookmarks still doesn't show where you found that bookmark! Aren't half your bookmarks stuck inside of nested folders??

Quick launch is often not useful to most ordinary users because if you exit it from the tray icon, you will likely not see it for weeks again! That means that every one of your startups of Mozilla will be fresh and probably take 8-15 seconds. Not good publicity!

In at least the last few weeks of builds, this was broken: New Mozilla windows (not tabs), when generated, move themselves over on the Taskbar instead of staying on the far right in the order in which they were created. I often find myself sitting there watching to see how that button is going to slide over into the wrong spot!

These are 3 bugs that all relevant developers should work on getting rid of right now for version 1.3.

Paul
 
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Post Posted November 26th, 2002, 4:29 pm

<b>CappuchinoMan,</b>

You posted above:
<b>that all relevant developers should work on getting rid of right now for version 1.3</b>

<reprimand>
Demanding my bugs x, y, or z must be fixed is not a constructive way to assist with the progress and improvement of Mozilla. All your complaining and demanding will not help fix the bugs and your attitude may even "turn off" developers from looking at your bugs.

Did you realize that the find feature was recently implimented and added to trunk builds less than a monthe ago (i beleieve it was actually within the last two weeks). Not all issues with with the find feature has been implimented. I am sure developers are aware of many of these shortcommings. It is not fair for you to come to this forum and demand these bugs be fixed before version 1.3, unless you are offering to do the programing work to fix them.

Rather than come to this this forum with a demand <b>that all relevant developers should work on getting rid of right now for version 1.3</b> why not go to bugzilla and check to see if any bugs have been filed for any of these issues. If not feel free to enter a bug report.

Developers are more likely to respond favourably to a kindly worded bug report (or possibly a polite forum post) which consicely reports the issue or problem and requests (not demands) help for their resolution. We need to show respect for all software developers working on Mozilla development!
</reprimand>

I applogize for any anger in my post. I am tired of people who post demands that <i>their</i> bug be fixed now. People should know that the developers are working very hard at producing what I feel is the best browser available on any platform. The deserve to be treated with respect! If we feel there is an unresolved issue (i.e. a bug) with Mozilla, disagree with a decision made by Mozilla org. or one or more developers we need to discuss it calmly and respectfully. Demands that our list of bugs be fixed now are out of place and show our disrecpt for the software cevelopers working on Mozilla. My suggestion is to ask politely for help. You might find that someone may actually offer to help you. They might even help you with bugzilla if you are not sure how to use it to file a bug.

michel v

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Post Posted November 26th, 2002, 4:33 pm

I am tired of "My Top 40 Bugs" topics, personally.
If you want to talk about bugs, please try one topic per bug, and provide extensive commentary or ways to reproduce the bug.
If it's a RFE, give ideas about how it could be implemented.

Ultimately, if you want bugs to be fixed, help around in Bugzilla and/or provide code patches.

CappuchinoMan
 
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Post Posted November 26th, 2002, 7:22 pm

I generally agree that my way of posting this didn't read well and sounded too demanding and frustrated.

Under a different alias I have been helping out quite a bit on Mozilla but not in a programming way. I have contributed with very many bug posts actually, but I guess I think I've seen so much of what is complained about and I've worked so much with Mozilla, that I feel I want to tell the developers what I think would be most important to keep people from leaving Mozilla or to also get new people excited. I agree Mozilla is probably the best browser available when you consider Mozilla *with* the extensions that have been written, but since we know there's very little time for Mozilla to distinguish itself, it gets frustrating for all of us I'm sure.

A very nice Find feature was indeed implemented but I didn't think that the most useful feature was. (The one that ancient Netscape 4 had--see bug 95748). Anyway, yes it's true, who am I to get frustrated and tell the programmers that they better get busy before Mozilla has no chance anymore? I will try to be more cooperative.

I think everyone needs to come to some general agreement, though, about which handful of bugs or features would be most helpful to have in Mozilla before 1.3 or generally as soon as possible (I know there's a tracking bug for this). Might as well talk about it here too I think. One of the problems with open source is that you don't have the same kind of management, and people can get lax as they pursue all sorts of projects. Microsoft, on the other hand, has to perform per schedule. There needs to be a manifesto written for Mozilla soon, imo, because it has to win with the best browser, and fast! We don't want to read a lame epitaph about Mozilla. Anyway, hopefully someone will write that manifesto soon and everyone will be clear what to fix immediately. Yes, it's just a browser, how important can this all be? Well, it may turn out to be the most powerful way to help commoditize the OS once and for all and get MS out of the picture of controlling the internet and all business transactions and charging for the exact same product a thousand times over. That's just my opinion.
I wish we could see some important changes to the focus of Mozilla right now.
1 Mozilla.org would certainly be better if it wasn't a geek page anymore. I would say they need to cut way down on the geek stuff on the main page and, for example, show useful things like links for all normally used Plugins easily visible in case ordinary people start stumbling their way over toward the site. Plugins are a major problem for users it would seem.
2 Mozilla could have a link on the Personal toolbar in to the downloaded browser to get to a page with links to ALL normally used Plugins. (Did I mention that the user needs to easily have plugins very soon after downloading unless he's legally blind?)
3 Mozilla/Netscape probably will need to work with Windows Update or many people will never stay with it. In addition to trying to get Mozilla working on the Update site, MS support should be bothered by all of us regarding that problem, too. (Windows Update is a good example of what the ignorant Court never even realized was a violation). As far as MS knowledge base articles, I think it would be nice to have code in the browser to make it work on microsoft.com until they fix it but we know they're going to drag their feet on Mozilla since they know how huge it is.

Radiowriter

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Post Posted November 26th, 2002, 7:41 pm

CappuchinoMan wrote:Mozilla/Netscape probably will need to work with Windows Update or many people will never stay with it.

Yeah, unfortunately their machines probably CAME with Windows, so they HAVE to stay with it. (You meant stay with Windows, right?) :)
Sarcasm - Another service I offer.
Firefox 3.0 :: XP

schapel
 
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Post Posted November 26th, 2002, 7:43 pm

CappuchinoMan wrote:...they better get busy before Mozilla has no chance anymore...


The Mozilla project has already created the most standards compliant browser that ever existed. How do you figure that Mozilla might have "no chance"? It's already been an overwhelming success!

CappuchinoMan
 
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Post Posted November 26th, 2002, 10:05 pm

Mozilla will be an "overwhelming success" only if being standards compliant is good for anything a year down the line! Mozilla/Netscape has to gain market share or new international standards will be written every day...and they'll bear a striking resemblence to Microsoft proprietary standards. ;-) And that might mean we all have to buy computers that still have Windows installed which we all know that no one wants!

Thumper

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Post Posted November 26th, 2002, 11:07 pm

Shouldn't you be posting as an Anonymous Coward?

Mozilla will never work with Windows Update, ever. Secondly, nightlies aren't intended for end users and it's consistently rammed home that there are high chances of them being broken. If developers had to spend hours making sure that all the code they were checking in that day didn't break anything, the pace of development would slow considerably.

- Chris

CappuchinoMan
 
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Post Posted November 27th, 2002, 5:59 am

>Shouldn't you be posting as an Anonymous Coward?

What is this supposed to mean? I'm not trying to post anonymously anyway.

And why are you talking about nightlies which have nothing to do with my comments at all?

schapel
 
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Post Posted November 27th, 2002, 7:05 am

CappuchinoMan wrote:Mozilla will be an "overwhelming success" only if being standards compliant is good for anything a year down the line! Mozilla/Netscape has to gain market share or new international standards will be written every day...and they'll bear a striking resemblence to Microsoft proprietary standards. ;-) And that might mean we all have to buy computers that still have Windows installed which we all know that no one wants!


What are you smoking? The W3C has been driving web standards for years, not Microsoft. No other browser needs to gain market share to make this happen. It's a done deal.

CappuchinoMan
 
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Post Posted November 27th, 2002, 7:25 am

Is ActiveX part of the W3C standards? And, also, you don't think that Microsoft can influence standards as they (the standards) evolve and become more advanced and that this could make it so that other browsers are lagging as they try to implement these changes? Microsoft can win the war of how the web's internals work if they can push "standards" fast enough, leaving competing browsers further and further behind. We've already learned that there's no one to keep them truly playing by "the rules".

schapel
 
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Post Posted November 27th, 2002, 8:13 am

CappuchinoMan wrote:Is ActiveX part of the W3C standards? And, also, you don't think that Microsoft can influence standards as they (the standards) evolve and become more advanced and that this could make it so that other browsers are lagging as they try to implement these changes? Microsoft can win the war of how the web's internals work if they can push "standards" fast enough, leaving competing browsers further and further behind. We've already learned that there's no one to keep them truly playing by "the rules".


No, ActiveX is not a part of W3C standards. Neither is Flash or Java. What does that have to do with the number of Mozilla users there are? If you can't come up with some kind of coherent train of thought, no one will listen to you!

CappuchinoMan
 
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Post Posted November 27th, 2002, 10:13 am

The point is, W3C isn't so terribly relevant to what actually will exist in browsers. As long as all other browsers have a negligible market share, Microsoft can come along and dump ActiveX and other stuff that they care to invent for their browser onto the market (and surely, they have a big incentive to do so), and web designers will write their pages for Microsoft. Meanwhile, the other browsers will look worse and worse in comparison. If instead, Netscape for example were able to get things moving now and actually gain market share quickly, web designers would be more balanced in how they treat the browsers and less tolerant of MS proprietary stuff.
Mozilla and Netscape are complete losers until they have a lot more market share than now. That's the way it works in the world of competing with Microsoft.

schapel
 
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Post Posted November 27th, 2002, 11:25 am

CappuchinoMan wrote:The point is, W3C isn't so terribly relevant to what actually will exist in browsers. As long as all other browsers have a negligible market share, Microsoft can come along and dump ActiveX and other stuff that they care to invent for their browser onto the market (and surely, they have a big incentive to do so), and web designers will write their pages for Microsoft. Meanwhile, the other browsers will look worse and worse in comparison. If instead, Netscape for example were able to get things moving now and actually gain market share quickly, web designers would be more balanced in how they treat the browsers and less tolerant of MS proprietary stuff.
Mozilla and Netscape are complete losers until they have a lot more market share than now. That's the way it works in the world of competing with Microsoft.


Microsoft has not added a proprietary feature to IE since 5.0. They've almost stopped adding any new features at all. Why would they with over 90% market share and getting no revenues from that product?

Your ramblings sound like you're stuck in 1997. This is 2002, and web standards are winning. If you're concerned about web designers using IE's proprietary features, work on Tech Evangelism or otherwise spread the word about web standards.

CappuchinoMan
 
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Post Posted November 27th, 2002, 12:39 pm

You are very effective in your debating. I can see now that really I shouldn't bother contributing anything, so that's my plan now.

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