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Firefox ESR, Pale Moon (or another non-Australis fork)

Discussion of third-party/unofficial Firefox/Thunderbird/SeaMonkey builds.
patrickjdempsey

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Post Posted June 12th, 2014, 12:50 pm

Trippynet wrote:
unknownsource wrote:So does this mean PaleMoon folks would be happy if we went over to their forum and started suggesting everyone switch to SeaMonkey every time there's a hiccup?


Actually, if someone has a problem with Pale Moon because of something it either doesn't do, or does in a way that someone isn't happy with and someone else suggests SeaMonkey as a workable alternative, believe it or not I'd actually be fine with that. The Pale Moon homepage readily admits that PM is not a solution for everyone (the lack of parental controls being a prime example). In which case, the PM site admits that Firefox might be a better fit for people in this situation.


1. Don't you EVER dare to quote me again and strip out my name. I've been reasonable up until now but this is just childish and lazy.

2. You really just don't get it do you? The whole reason the mods and everyone else is SICK of hearing about PaleMoon is because fanbois like yourself have no sense of when it is appropriate to recommend migrating to PaleMoon. Someone doesn't like tabs on top? PaleMoon. Someone misses the addons bar? PaleMoon. Someone misses an extension that no longer works? PaleMoon. Toolbar color is too blue? PaleMoon. Seriously, I've seen people offering PaleMoon as a solution to problems that don't even EXIST like the "missing" menubar. That's wreckless and stupid.

3. You and most of your ilk have absolutely NO CLUE what the limitations and issues are with this, while most of in this conversation actually do. Eventually MoonChild is going to HAVE to change the GUID and when that happens every PaleMoon user is going to wake up to every extension they use being disabled. That isn't FUD. It's reality and he admits to it himself in your back-handed PaleMoon forum attack post that Frank dug up. The fact that most 3rd party build "forks" die out after a few years is also not FUD, it's a fact. We've seen literally dozens of them here, with the users always excited about how their favorite build is so much superior to Firefox. And now they are gone. And somewhere, some poor mom is using that last version of the Orca Browser that her fanboi son installed on her computer when he was visiting from college. Because when a weird off-shoot build dies there is no update mechanism to get you back to a stable secure browser. Giving out advice as if it's free candy without understanding the ramifications of that advice is utterly irresponsible.
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Trippynet

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Post Posted June 13th, 2014, 2:19 am

LoudNoise wrote:by suggesting anything we brought up was FUD. .


Not everything, just the constant claims of "It will fail", "It will die off", "The developer will have to adopt Australis", etc. Those are the FUD bits. The fact that it's similar to Firefox, that addon compatibility issues may arise, that's fair enough. However the original claims involve placing maximum emphasis on the negative possibilities, attempting to pass them as absolute and definite fact with the most fear/uncertainty/doubt possible. Hence, FUD.

LoudNoise wrote:When we pointed out the obvious, small projects don't last long, if they do "fork" and the codes starts to mess with extensions or if they change GRID the chances of the extension community following them is almost nil, that code isn't very different at all from the basecode so it really isn't a folk


Those aren't FUD in their own right. The problem is that a lot of small projects don't last long, so you claim as absolute fact that PM will die shortly. Maybe the stats suggest that and you deem it very likely, but PM dying off imminently is not an absolute fact. The extension issue is also up for debate and I accept there's potential risks/issues here, but nothing which is set in stone. We'll have to see how it pans out ultimately. Oh, and I agree that going just for PM specific addons is unlikely to be a resounding success.

patrickjdempsey wrote:Don't you EVER dare to quote me again and strip out my name. I've been reasonable up until now but this is just childish and lazy.


And instead of politely pointing this out, you jump down my throat. Thanks for validating my earlier point about how snappy and strung up you lot are. Fair enough, consider your name mentioned in the quotes.

patrickjdempsey wrote:fanbois like yourself have no sense of when it is appropriate to recommend migrating to PaleMoon


Some times it may be in the wrong place and when people spam needlessly, by all means have a go. But the issue I raised was that it took one and a half pages of Australis, ESR etc. discussion before someone mentioned it off-hand. In my opinion, it was a perfectly relevant mention in this case. Maybe not all in cases where it comes up, but that doesn't mean you have free reign to pounce on people when something like this crops up perfectly within the context of a thread.

patrickjdempsey wrote:The fact that most 3rd party build "forks" die out after a few years is also not FUD, it's a fact.


Agreed! Saying that statistically it's likely to die out is fine. Saying is absolutely 100% will die is FUD and a sweeping generalisation of opinion. That's the distinction I've been trying to make.

patrickjdempsey wrote:And somewhere, some poor mom is using that last version of the Orca Browser that her fanboi son installed on her computer when he was visiting from college. Because when a weird off-shoot build dies there is no update mechanism to get you back to a stable secure browser.


Also agreed. I would not recommend installing PM or any other fork/alternative build onto other people's computers like that. PM should only be used by people who know what they're doing and who understand the ramifications. If someone has the forethought to register and post here for advice however, chances are they do know what they're doing with a browser to a reasonable degree though. Even then, I'd only recommend it if people have problems with FF that can't be easily overcome (and again, one and a half pages of FF and Mozilla talk originated before PM was first mentioned before). I myself tried CTR before still running into issues, I became frustrated and looked elsewhere and I'd personally recommend others do the same first of all as well.

Anyway, this one has pretty much run its course, so I'll leave you with this:

I wrote:There is a real attitude problem on mozillaZine.
...
I'm sure you'll do your usual rounding on this and firing of grumbles, insults and accusations as normal.


malliz wrote:...this boring fart


Frank Lion wrote: a carpetbagger


patrickjdempsey wrote:You and most of your ilk have absolutely NO CLUE


Bravo. =D>

Thank you for confirming my point. You just couldn't bring yourselves to grow up and respond maturely could you.

LoudNoise
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Post Posted June 13th, 2014, 7:12 am

Trippynet wrote:
LoudNoise wrote:by suggesting anything we brought up was FUD. .


Not everything, just the constant claims of "It will fail", "It will die off", "The developer will have to adopt Australis", etc. Those are the FUD bits. The fact that it's similar to Firefox, that addon compatibility issues may arise, that's fair enough. However the original claims involve placing maximum emphasis on the negative possibilities, attempting to pass them as absolute and definite fact with the most fear/uncertainty/doubt possible. Hence, FUD.

LoudNoise wrote:When we pointed out the obvious, small projects don't last long, if they do "fork" and the codes starts to mess with extensions or if they change GRID the chances of the extension community following them is almost nil, that code isn't very different at all from the basecode so it really isn't a folk


Those aren't FUD in their own right. The problem is that a lot of small projects don't last long, so you claim as absolute fact that PM will die shortly. Maybe the stats suggest that and you deem it very likely, but PM dying off imminently is not an absolute fact. The extension issue is also up for debate and I accept there's potential risks/issues here, but nothing which is set in stone. We'll have to see how it pans out ultimately. Oh, and I agree that going just for PM specific addons is unlikely to be a resounding success.

So, it is FUD only because it was said against PaleMoon? When I have said basically the same thing about most of the other "projects" it isn't fud?

Did I suggest that PM will die off imminently? Nope, it will take some time. The extension issue isn't up to debate at all. When they change the grid and start to break extensions that will be all the is to it. While a few might follow most won't. This is simply economics. Folks don't spend time working on things that are not to their advantage.


Can Palemoon succeed? Sure. Can someone give me a lotto ticket that wins tomorrow? Sure.
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Trippynet

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Post Posted June 13th, 2014, 9:17 am

LoudNoise wrote:So, it is FUD only because it was said against PaleMoon?


Not at all. As I've said before, taking your opinion (even if based on past experiences) and passing it off as absolute fact is where the FUD comes along. That and over-hyping every single negative possibility to maximum levels (especially when based on opinions rather than solid facts).

I'll say it one more time. You do not KNOW that Palemoon will die at some point soon - it could still be going in 20 years for all you know. Of course, expand things forever and it gets silly. Firefox will die at some point soon by that reckoning. Similarly, you do not KNOW how the Australis issue will pan out, although you have strong suspicions of course. When you start claiming your predictions are absolute fact (even if based on past experience), you are spreading FUD, not the truth. And this argument can be applied to any alternate build, not just Pale Moon incidentally. Likelihoods, predictions, opinions etc. are NOT absolute facts.

LoudNoise wrote:The extension issue isn't up to debate at all. When they change the grid and start to break extensions that will be all the is to it.


IF they change the GUID, then this is likely the case, I agree. However, what is up for debate is whether this will even be done or not. It certainly has been considered, but at no point has the developer actually committed to it. It's perfectly possible he might decide that changing it will cause too many problems, then stick with the current GUID to try and maintain compatibility. In that case, it's much more difficult to predict how it'll pan out, how quickly addons will require Australis code to work, etc.

Can Palemoon succeed? Sure.


Fantastic, we agree on something. Only difference is that you think the chances are incredibly low indeed, I think they're a good chunk higher than that.

I'm happy for your opinion (and others) to differ from mine, I truly am. I just get frustrated when you try to pass your opinions off as facts.

LoudNoise
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Post Posted June 13th, 2014, 9:40 am

Nice quote. You seemed to have lost part of it.

Ok, so my experience with seeing these fail one after another is FUD while your belief that this one will succeed is fact? I never said it was fact, I merely have said it almost certainly a fact and why.

Will Australis pan out? Who knows, it takes, depending on your taste, one or two extensions to make it go away.

Will Firefox (or, more specificly, Mozilla)fail? Sooner or later, yes. Likely much later.
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patrickjdempsey

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Post Posted June 13th, 2014, 9:44 am

When desktop Firefox dies, PaleMoon dies. There's another non-FUD fact for you.
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rsx11m
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Post Posted June 13th, 2014, 10:51 am

... and with this perfect conclusion it is time to lock this.

LoudNoise
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Post Posted June 16th, 2014, 7:51 pm

Note to lurkers from this thread http://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?p=30016#p30016 . We have first post approval here. If you don't already have an account you have posted to then you won't get in. Also, we are much brighter then you.
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