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Firefox ESR, Pale Moon (or another non-Australis fork)

Discussion of third-party/unofficial Firefox/Thunderbird/SeaMonkey builds.
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Post Posted June 9th, 2014, 4:24 pm

Kipary wrote:There's an easy and helpful solution to this in that there needs to be a stickied topic on alternative builds that tells us about ESR, Seamonkey, and various ESR builds like PM.

This part of the forum is clearly marked "Mozilla Firefox" we give help for Firefox here other sections of the forum are clearly marked if you are unable to differentiate then you have other problems
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Post Posted June 9th, 2014, 5:21 pm

Loudnoise & patrickjdempsey: I see where you all are coming from, and the reasons do make sense. Also, thanks for the link to the unofficial builds forum - I see now that it is on the main page but buried near the end of the page under Development.

mailliz: ESR is officially supported Firefox ESR, so this clearly fits the forum label of "Mozilla Firefox." The alternate builds of ESR, you could argue against, but they are at least relevant since they do not have first-class forums. Seamonkey does not fit the forum label, but it might be mentioned out of completeness to differentiate build vs fork. The labeling does not lay out a clear picture of the Mozilla browser universe for a newcomer, but from Loudnoise and patrickjdempsey's comments, I understand why.

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Post Posted June 9th, 2014, 5:28 pm

And we supply help with ESR.

Most third party builds are made by people on home computers as a hobby thing and that's what the Third Party builds section is for.
viewforum.php?f=42

Palemoon has it's own Forum
http://forum.palemoon.org/viewforum.php?f=15

We are here to help with Firefox not give alternative Browser Options
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Post Posted June 9th, 2014, 5:54 pm

There is a section for SeaMonkey here at viewforum.php?f=51 which you can see on http://forums.mozillazine.org/

There are a variety of third-party builds and it would not really make sense to have their own sections on http://forums.mozillazine.org/

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Post Posted June 9th, 2014, 7:10 pm

The third party releases are buried toward the bottom but at one time that made sense. When mozilla was young the Development section was much more active then it is now. Moving third party to a higher position now is not worth the risk of blowing up the database.
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Post Posted June 10th, 2014, 5:34 am

I would agree that ESR is not really an Australis solution. At best, it postpones the inevitable. Pale Moon is a better choice as the developer does at least intend to avoid Australis once the new ESR is rolled out. Hence it'll be Australis free for as long as the current ESR build and will hopefully be Australis free afterwards (unlike ESR which we know will adopt it). Sure some of you don't think he'll be able to pull it off, but he's dedicated to trying at least.

Personally, I don't see why it's considered such a huge deal to port the interface of the current ESR into a new build once ESR is updated. Addons will always be different due to relying on Javascript to effectively re-invent the interface. Plus it's worth pointing out that CTR is not just a replacement of Australis with the old theme, it's a huge sea of customisation whereby you can have everything from classic to Australis in whatever form you like (and a pile of bits beyond as well). PM is highly unlikely (IMO) to try and implement such a massive sea of options that go way beyond the customisability of Firefox 28 and earlier, choosing instead to take the code that drives the current interface of PM and port it forwards onto the new codebase of the upcoming ESR release. It'll take some work, but should be perfectly possible.

It's also exceedingly unlikely that extensions and themes looking for certain features will continue to be compatible with a forked UI. And also exceedingly unlikely that extensions and theme authors will be able do anything about supporting a forked UI even if they wanted to because of the use of the Firefox GUID in PaleMoon.


A fair comment. At first I don't foresee too many issues as extensions often do support older builds of FF. I have an old IRIX machine that runs a port of Firefox 3.0.0.19 and there's a surprising number of addons that do still work with it. Of course, over time incompatibilities may start to show up, I grant you. But as themes can be changed in Firefox anyway, it'd be a poor addon that relies on the base theme anyway. Quite how it'll pan out I'm ultimately unsure of, and the PM developer has been talking about possibly changing the GUID of PaleMoon and looking at certifying PM compatible addons possibly from a separate addon site, should this be necessary. Of course, doing this in itself would break compatibility with a lot of addons, so it isn't a straightforward call. However right here and right now, PM has a classic interface and works with virtually all FF addons.

For the future, if PM goes in a direction I'm not happy with, I'll re-evaluate my options at the time. However, I live in the present, and I'm not going to choose my browser of today based on what addons I think will work with it in 2-3 years time.

Have you ever considered SeaMonkey? No Australis and up to date (currently based on Firefox 29, not ESR). You'll notice that some of the posters on this thread actually posted with it. So, hatred for non-Firefox isn't necessarily the case.


I have used SeaMonkey in the past, and do also use an older port of it on IRIX from time to time. Haven't tried it more recently as I was ideally looking for something more Firefox oriented. Might give it a try at some point though! Obviously I expect that SeaMonkey will not receive the same animosity as Firefox as it's still an official Mozilla product. My issue with the reception of PM and others is that Firefox is FOSS (and hence encourages alternative builds etc), yet the community seems to respond very negatively towards them all, which seems a strange approach to take to me.

You seem to mistake disagreement with disapproval and spitefulness. This isn't the case.


I tend to find that it starts out with disapproval and quickly goes downhill from there. Every time there is a mention of another "Firefox build"/fork/call-it-what-you-like, there is an outpouring of FUD and disapproval.

For example...

...until the one guy doing it croaks or gets a life.

Not defensive at all we are, just getting tired of the fanboy nonsense


Sure these are not Mozilla projects (although strongly based on Mozilla code), but people here do seem to put as much effort as possible into putting the willies up anyone who might dare to try an unofficial build. Almost as if trying another unofficial build is some sort of point-of-no-return moment. I tried PM, preferred it to FF29 and so I use it. If in a new version things go pear shaped, I'll drop it and try another browser. But all of the FUD about not trying another browser because the developer might not be able to do something at some point in the future is stretching it a bit I think. If he fails with it, so be it. At least he's listening to people and is willing to try unlike Mozilla at present.

We are here to help with Firefox not give alternative Browser Options


Agreed. I would not expect resident people here to be pointing people at unofficial builds. However, I would wish that when someone does happen to mention one within the context of a thread that there could be less FUD and animosity about it.

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Post Posted June 10th, 2014, 6:17 am

Our recommendations on browser choice is personal advice based on experience your constant use of the FUD term smacks of a flame war artist or Trolling
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Post Posted June 10th, 2014, 6:27 am

Trippynet wrote:
Agreed. I would not expect resident people here to be pointing people at unofficial builds. However, I would wish that when someone does happen to mention one within the context of a thread that there could be less FUD and animosity about it.


I am not certain why when we point out the obvious, i.e. that the spin-offs are Firefox with a few changes and that actual forks are a hell of a lot harder then people understand, are considered FUD. Nor do I understand why folks who use these programs feel a need take vaguely related threads off topic with their cheerleading.
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Post Posted June 10th, 2014, 6:37 am

Trippynet wrote:And I will fire it right back at you. Let's be blunt, you have no idea how much programming the guy does

Wrong. A theme and extension developer, like myself, knows exactly how much programming is needed to do this -

Trippynet wrote: Pale Moon isn't a radically different browser, and believe it or not, that's intentional.


The answer is, not much.


Trippynet wrote: However, I would wish that when someone does happen to mention one within the context of a thread that there could be less FUD and animosity about it.

Let me make it clearer for you. I don't give a damn about what browser or build of browser people use.

But, I do genuinely dislike people like you and your kind. I don't know if you are all 13 years old or just stuck in some 2005 Slashdot timewarp, but every single phrase and tactic you use, the mock outrage, the BS, the FUD stuff, I have seen a hundred times before. The relentless BS from you guys gets old very quick.

You can write 10,000 words here or 100,000, but I always write directly to those reading a thread. On this thread, all that people will remember is that you came along and tried to piss on people's shoes and tell them it's raining - viewtopic.php?p=13606871#p13606871
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Post Posted June 10th, 2014, 7:30 am

I have used SeaMonkey in the past, and do also use an older port of it on IRIX from time to time. Haven't tried it more recently as I was ideally looking for something more Firefox oriented. Might give it a try at some point though!


Hi TrippyNet, I too am a happy Pale Moon user, and I also use SeaMonkey and really like it so far. (I use Firefox 29 also, mainly at work.)

SeaMonkey has some extensions and themes that help make it look and act more like Firefox. You might find those helpful if you give SeaMonkey a try. Despite my excitement and nostalgia (I'm old enough to have used NCSA Mosaic back in the Bronze Age), I found SeaMonkey almost too old-school even for my taste -- I've become accustomed to things like x-closure buttons on each tab, for example. The Sea Fox extension by patrickjdempsey is a huge help, and makes SeaMonkey more Firefox-flavored.

There's also a thread (by patrickjdempsey) in the SeaMonkey support forum, Migrating from Firefox to SeaMonkey browser FAQ. That, too, is helpful for Firefox users transitioning to SeaMonkey.

Just FYI if you'd like to give the modern SeaMonkey a whirl at some point.

(Edited post to remove faulty URL tags - at work currently, no time to fix it. Sorry! Will try later.)

(Edited - fixed faulty links.)

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Post Posted June 11th, 2014, 3:09 am

your constant use of the FUD term smacks of a flame war artist or Trolling


FUD is Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. Not to be blunt, but that's exactly what gets wheeled out every time someone so much as mentions an alternative build. The developer will get bored. It could get abandoned at any moment. Addons probably won't work with it much longer. The work will be too hard for the developer. The developer probably only has basic coding skills and will soon fall over, etc. etc. etc. Drawing heavily on every possible negative and pushing them as much as possible is the very definition of FUD. That's not meant in a derogatory way, it's just how it is. Also, pointing this out (in one discussion thread) isn't trolling or flaming.

I am not certain why when we point out the obvious, i.e. that the spin-offs are Firefox with a few changes and that actual forks are a hell of a lot harder then people understand, are considered FUD.


That part isn't FUD I grant you. I'm fully aware that Pale Moon is basically a tweaked Firefox (that's one of the main reasons I like it). It's all the doom-mongering that goes hand in hand with this which is the problem IMO.

Nor do I understand why folks who use these programs feel a need take vaguely related threads off topic with their cheerleading.


I seem to recall that this was not the case in the thread this was originally split from. A user was asking about avoiding Australis and discussions about the relative merits/drawbacks of the ESR release were mentioned, along with CTR and SeaMonkey. Then someone mentioned Pale Moon (amongst other suggestions) as another option to look at and promptly got jumped upon and lambasted. That's not an off-topic post, spamming or trolling. It was a genuine attempt by the user to point out another option which is still 99% Firefox, but without Australis. If anything, the lambasting and complaining was what drove the original thread off-topic. I disagreed with the negative comments that followed this incident, hence my original response. I'm perfectly happy with this current discussion being split from that original thread and never complained about you doing so.

Wrong. A theme and extension developer, like myself, knows exactly how much programming is needed to do this


With respect, themes and extensions are different to "alternative builds". Especially when you have to constantly update and test them to cover each new patch, security update, etc from both Mozilla and your own tweaks/modifications. Not saying that extensions are easy mind you (some are very difficult indeed), but it seems a bit simplified to say "I can knock up a theme easily enough so the Pale Moon developer is obviously a lazy sod with no real programing skills". That's a bit of a far-reaching conclusion to come to.

But, I do genuinely dislike people like you and your kind. I don't know if you are all 13 years old or just stuck in some 2005 Slashdot timewarp...


Yes, the way I've tried to calmly and maturely discuss this, compared with your tactic of running around and shouting "lies, BS!!". You then have the affront to ask if I'm the one that's 13 years old.

the mock outrage, the BS, the FUD stuff, I have seen a hundred times before. The relentless BS from you guys gets old very quick...

you came along and tried to piss on people's shoes and tell them it's raining


Not to be too blunt, but the fact that you've managed to squeeze the phrase "BS" into every other sentence is also getting very old and tiresome. Please can you grow up. As for my tactics, simply trying to have a calm and mature discussion must be very frustrating for you. Especially the way I've tried to address, discuss and (at times) object to points raised. Consequently, I have never resorted to so called "outrage". Decidedly flabbergasted and disappointed at how you keep using phrases such as "they sure as hell don't have to very advanced coding skills" when talking about someone you don't even know, yes. But full-blown outage? That's a bit far.

As it is, given your deeply immature and unpleasant attitude, is it any wonder that you're very used to seeing people expressing distaste at your posts? I may not agree with everything that LoudNoise and others are saying, but at least they're managing to conduct themselves in a calm and mature fashion.

Just FYI if you'd like to give the modern SeaMonkey a whirl at some point.


Thanks for the info! I think the build of SeaMonkey on my SGI machines is one of the last 1.* releases (and does still look nicely like good old Netscape). I will give one of the newer builds a whirl at some point on my PC. After all, it's always good to have more than one browser to rely on!

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Post Posted June 11th, 2014, 4:21 am

Trippynet wrote:...Yes, the way I've tried to calmly and maturely discuss this...

...As for my tactics, simply trying to have a calm and mature discussion...

...As it is, given your deeply immature and unpleasant attitude...

...conduct themselves in a calm and mature fashion....

Thanks for clearing that one up, but I suspected as much. It's an interesting fact that only kids and teenagers drone on about maturity. I suppose, because it's a big thing for them at that age.

Anyway, having skim read the lengths of your posts here, you do seem to have a remarkably lot of time on your hands.

I don't, I'll leave you with this -

Frank Lion wrote:Ever since I've been here guys like you convince themselves that it is their 'negative feedback views' that provoke such an adverse reaction, but it is actually them as people that others find tedious.

viewtopic.php?p=10784735#p10784735

some light reading - viewtopic.php?p=13606871#p13606871
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Post Posted June 11th, 2014, 4:48 am

His bumptious idea that people here do not in fact know programing and what the PM dev does is both pretty funny though........ I laughed until I stopped
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Post Posted June 11th, 2014, 7:10 am

Trippynet wrote:
your constant use of the FUD term smacks of a flame war artist or Trolling


FUD is Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. Not to be blunt, but that's exactly what gets wheeled out every time someone so much as mentions an alternative build. The developer will get bored. It could get abandoned at any moment. Addons probably won't work with it much longer. The work will be too hard for the developer. The developer probably only has basic coding skills and will soon fall over, etc. etc. etc. Drawing heavily on every possible negative and pushing them as much as possible is the very definition of FUD. That's not meant in a derogatory way, it's just how it is. Also, pointing this out (in one discussion thread) isn't trolling or flaming.


it is simply is not fud. If PaleMoon forks from Firefox few extension or theme folks are going to follow it. They simply don't have enough folks using it. The work will be too hard for a single or small group of developers to maintain. Firefox now maintains most of the code, there isn't any way the a small group can take this over. No one seems to have an opinion about the developer's skill, it was merely pointed out that they aren't doing much in the way of original development. As for falling over, well, take a look at Third Party builds. It happens all the time.

By the way, folks get bored with working on Firefox all the time. It doesn't matter since there are always folks who are willing to work on it. If a majority of the folks who work on firefox got bored at the same time, the Mozilla project would likely disappear.

I am not certain why when we point out the obvious, i.e. that the spin-offs are Firefox with a few changes and that actual forks are a hell of a lot harder then people understand, are considered FUD.


That part isn't FUD I grant you. I'm fully aware that Pale Moon is basically a tweaked Firefox (that's one of the main reasons I like it). It's all the doom-mongering that goes hand in hand with this which is the problem IMO.


Which is the point that all of this comes from. If PaleMoon or any of the others continue to follow Firefox, perhaps by using CTR with presets, they will do fine.

Nor do I understand why folks who use these programs feel a need take vaguely related threads off topic with their cheerleading.


I seem to recall that this was not the case in the thread this was originally split from. A user was asking about avoiding Australis and discussions about the relative merits/drawbacks of the ESR release were mentioned, along with CTR and SeaMonkey. Then someone mentioned Pale Moon (amongst other suggestions) as another option to look at and promptly got jumped upon and lambasted. That's not an off-topic post, spamming or trolling. It was a genuine attempt by the user to point out another option which is still 99% Firefox, but without Australis. If anything, the lambasting and complaining was what drove the original thread off-topic. I disagreed with the negative comments that followed this incident, hence my original response. I'm perfectly happy with this current discussion being split from that original thread and never complained about you doing so.


The topic was about suggesting ESR which isn't a good idea at this point. I had to split a number of use (name the clone) off of it.
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Post Posted June 11th, 2014, 8:06 am

Thanks for clearing that one up, but I suspected as much. It's an interesting fact that only kids and teenagers drone on about maturity. I suppose, because it's a big thing for them at that age.


And as a 31 year old IT professional, I only mention it when I have someone screaming "BS! Lies!" every five seconds. Act grown up and I won't question your maturity. You might want to take note of the fact that you're the only person I've suggested it to and ask yourself why that is the case.

you do seem to have a remarkably lot of time on your hands.


Just a one hour lunch break at work, then a bit of personal time in the evening before the Mrs gets home from work.

Ever since I've been here guys like you convince themselves that it is their 'negative feedback views' that provoke such an adverse reaction, but it is actually them as people that others find tedious.


I don't think that at all. I think it's because you're particularly bitter about something. You cannot hold a reasoned debate. You cannot stay focused on the topic at hand. Instead, you're too busy forming lazy and negative personal opinions of people who've done nothing to yourself. Then all you do is use these opinions to attack people's integrity. You've not entered this debate with any real technical approach, you've simply sat there and attacked the developer's integrity, then my own.

I'm not going to attack your programming skills or your intelligence because I honestly don't know you. I'll call into question your maturity sure, only because you're doing a fantastic job of revealing the lack of it at every opportunity.

Final point, not sure why you keep on posting a link back to an earlier post in this thread. I've read it before and have already argued the point there. Pale Moon is designed to be pretty close to Firefox and to attempt a radical departure requires a lot more than one (likely part-time) developer. I still think it's completely wrong to look at that and think "hey, must be a crap developer". Pale Moon does however have extra options, tweaked feature set, different UI layout and an accompanying extensions that allows further tweaking if wanted (off the top of my head). It is not just Firefox with some bits removed.

His bumptious idea that people here do not in fact know programing and what the PM dev does is both pretty funny though........ I laughed until I stopped


You can say it until you're blue in the face, but until it's backed up with some actual examples, it's just a set of hollow words and baseless accusations. I'm fully aware that people here do know programming with many maintaining addons etc, although how many of them have experience with manipulating the actual source code of Firefox is open for debate. However, until you've looked through the full and detailed feature set of Pale Moon in comparison to Firefox, and the frequency of releases, plus the differences between the releases over time, you cannot draw any sort of remotely accurate picture of the developers dedication and programming skills. Until someone does, questioning the developers skills amounts to nothing more than empty, disrespectful words.

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