MozillaZine

Firefox ESR, Pale Moon (or another non-Australis fork)

Discussion of third-party/unofficial Firefox/Thunderbird/SeaMonkey builds.
Trippynet

User avatar
 
Posts: 164
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 1:59 am

Post Posted June 9th, 2014, 3:34 am

Not defensive at all we are, just getting tired of the fanboy nonsense


Sorry, I'm trying to work out which parts that have been said are nonsense.

The fact is that Australis has not been the unrivaled success that Mozilla hoped for and for those users that have a problem with it, the options are increasingly limited. I agree that sticking with the ESR build of Firefox isn't a good solution as we know that it won't be Australis-free for much longer. Hence, the only viable options are to try and use addons to fix the problem, or try an alternative fork of Firefox which has a different interface.

The add-on solution isn't perfect. I tried it myself after finding that Australis's lack of customisability was incompatible with how I work. Unfortunately, whilst CTR was a useful improvement, I ran into a number of issues and compatibility problems with other addons I use, resulting in the interface displaying in a rather clunky/broken fashion.

As for Pale Moon (or another none-Australis fork), of course we cannot say how they will work in 2-3 years time, nobody is trying to. However, right now at the current point in time, Pale Moon is a regularly maintained fork of Firefox which is compatible with all my current extensions and which has an interface which I can tweak to suit my needs. It also pledges to avoid Australis for longer than any official Mozilla build of Firefox. That is why I ended my 11 year association with Firefox recently. In 2 years time, maybe things will be different, maybe not. Right now, Pale Moon suits my needs better than any official build of Firefox. This isn't me pimping it or anything mind you, this is just how it is for myself.

Ultimately going forwards, Mozilla will have to make a choice with Australis. It's clear that a sizeable group of people do like it, and that's great! It's also clear that another sizeable group of people are very disappointed with it due to the customisability and functionality which has been removed. The question is whether Mozilla will ignore/abandon this latter group of users (which will simply serve to drive the development of alternative forks), or whether they'll look at improving Australis to allow it to meet the needs of the whole user-base in future versions.

Answers on a postcard!

malliz
Folder@Home

User avatar
 
Posts: 44015
Joined: December 7th, 2002, 4:34 am
Location: Australia

Post Posted June 9th, 2014, 5:25 am

Trippynet wrote:Pale Moon is a regularly maintained fork of Firefox which is compatible with all my current extensions and which has an interface which I can tweak to suit my needs. It also pledges to avoid Australis for longer than any official Mozilla build of Firefox.

But how long is that? seeing the ESR branch goes to Australis in October the onus will then be on the Palemoon dev to maintain old code while trying to keep security updates happening. At the moment he can and does use the current esr code and as I say after October that will no longer be the case

Trippynet wrote: The question is whether Mozilla will ignore/abandon this latter group of users (which will simply serve to drive the development of alternative forks), or whether they'll look at improving Australis to allow it to meet the needs of the whole user-base in future versions.


You assume incorrectly that Mozilla think there is a problem with Australis... they don't. If you managed to coral any of the heads they would either ignore your question give you some spin about how customisable Australis is or point to the addons and say there is your answer. The constant talk of forks is wishful thinking as many of us have been around long enough to have seen many come and go and with respect they are at best a short term solution. Your choices are find another Browser learn to either adjust to Australis or adjust it to your needs. There will be no about turn from Mozilla in three, six, or twelve months time..... it will not happen.
What sort of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.
"Terry Pratchett"

LoudNoise
New Member

User avatar
 
Posts: 40048
Joined: October 18th, 2007, 1:45 pm
Location: Next door to the west

Post Posted June 9th, 2014, 6:44 am

Trippynet wrote:
Not defensive at all we are, just getting tired of the fanboy nonsense


Sorry, I'm trying to work out which parts that have been said are nonsense.

The suggestion that Palemoon, etc are somehow different projects from Firefox. They are not. They are simply clones with some superficial changes, not "forks". It gets tiresome to hear how much better they are then Firefox. They are not. They are Firefox from folks that make claims to be speedier (and carefully discount the validity of most speed tests at the bottom of their home pages).

The fact is that Australis has not been the unrivaled success that Mozilla hoped for and for those users that have a problem with it, the options are increasingly limited. I agree that sticking with the ESR build of Firefox isn't a good solution as we know that it won't be Australis-free for much longer. Hence, the only viable options are to try and use addons to fix the problem, or try an alternative fork of Firefox which has a different interface.


The UI changes between Version 2 and Version 3 and between Verion 3 and Version 4 were also "not been the unrivaled success that Mozilla hoped for" which is why there are extensions and themes that bring back the "classic" look of both of these versions. There will always be disagreements and unhappiness about the UI. Every release is the worst ever.

The add-on solution isn't perfect. I tried it myself after finding that Australis's lack of customisability was incompatible with how I work. Unfortunately, whilst CTR was a useful improvement, I ran into a number of issues and compatibility problems with other addons I use, resulting in the interface displaying in a rather clunky/broken fashion.

Since your last post here is from 2010 it doesn't appear you attempted to contact anyone to help with your problem, certainly not the dev of CTR. Most likely these problems can be solved assuming the extension authors have not abandoned the extension.
As for Pale Moon (or another none-Australis fork), of course we cannot say how they will work in 2-3 years time, nobody is trying to. However, right now at the current point in time, Pale Moon is a regularly maintained fork of Firefox which is compatible with all my current extensions and which has an interface which I can tweak to suit my needs. It also pledges to avoid Australis for longer than any official Mozilla build of Firefox. That is why I ended my 11 year association with Firefox recently. In 2 years time, maybe things will be different, maybe not. Right now, Pale Moon suits my needs better than any official build of Firefox. This isn't me pimping it or anything mind you, this is just how it is for myself.

You haven't ended your association with Firefox, you have simply renamed it. You are using Firefox ESR and will likely face Australis no later then August of next year. These folks do exceeding little original programing and that isn't going to magically change.
Post wrangler
"Choose between the Food Select Feature or other Functions. If no food or function is chosen, Toast is the default."

Frank Lion

User avatar
 
Posts: 20649
Joined: April 23rd, 2004, 6:59 pm
Location: ... The Exorcist....United Kingdom

Post Posted June 9th, 2014, 7:01 am

This is part of an apologist PM pimper's post, who doesn't actually realise the implication of what they wrote -

asdfgf wrote:...BTW, Palemoon has been around since January of 2010. There's so little difference that it could be maintained by almost anyone with basic coding skills if they wanted to. Chillax, guys, they're all free browsers-if we don't like one, we can go to another.


Why in 4 years is there so little difference? If you want to make a much better browser, you would have made big differences and you would need advanced coding skills to do so. Point is, if they couldn't make the big differences in the past, they sure as hell don't have to very advanced coding skills that would be required to 'revert' the Australis changes in the future.
Metal Lion latest SeaMonkey & Thunderbird Themes - Sea Monkey and Silver Sea Monkey
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke (attrib.)

Trippynet

User avatar
 
Posts: 164
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 1:59 am

Post Posted June 9th, 2014, 8:36 am

But how long is that? seeing the ESR branch goes to Australis in October the onus will then be on the Palemoon dev to maintain old code while trying to keep security updates happening. At the moment he can and does use the current esr code and as I say after October that will no longer be the case


The developer seems confident that porting the current interface onto the updated engine code from the new ESR branch is entirely feasible, and I see no reason why this would be a problem. At the end of the day, Australis is merely the interface and changing an interface shouldn't be too big a deal, otherwise themes and extensions like CTR wouldn't exist.

You assume incorrectly that Mozilla think there is a problem with Australis... they don't. If you managed to coral any of the heads they would either ignore your question give you some spin about how customisable Australis is or point to the addons and say there is your answer.


Unfortunately, this is basically an admission that Mozilla have their heads completely in the sand and are utterly detached from reality. Completely ignoring some of the vocal opposition, the meteoric rise of the CTR extension, etc. It's truly sad to see an organisation like Mozilla fall like this and only serves to further erode what little remaining confidence I have in them.

The constant talk of forks is wishful thinking as many of us have been around long enough to have seen many come and go and with respect they are at best a short term solution. Your choices are find another Browser learn to either adjust to Australis or adjust it to your needs.


And with respect, a short term solution is better than no solution. If Pale Moon were to die a death in future, I'll look around again. Until now, I don't see the point in looking for a solution when there is one under my nose. Adjusting to Australis isn't going to happen in its current form. IMO it's an affront to what Mozilla is supposed to stand for.

The suggestion that Palemoon, etc are somehow different projects from Firefox. They are not. They are simply clones with some superficial changes, not "forks". It gets tiresome to hear how much better they are then Firefox. They are not


You really need to learn the difference between fact and opinion. I'm aware that Pale Moon is Firefox in a frock, that's partly why I use it because I do like a lot about Firefox, just not the new interface and loss of customisation. As for whether it's better or not, sorry but that is entirely open to personal opinion. Personally, I consider Pale Moon to have all the main advantages of Firefox, but with a much better interface. Hence my own personal opinion is that Pale Moon is better than Firefox. That is not a fact, it's my opinion. The speed comments, that's open to debate and is not personally why I use Pale Moon.

The UI changes between Version 2 and Version 3 and between Verion 3 and Version 4


Neither involved removing major batches of functionality however. I'm fine with browsers introducing new themes, new layouts etc. I'm not suggesting that browsers should just emulate Netscape 4 for the rest of eternity. However when a supposedly "new" version involves the forced removal of a lot of functionality such that I cannot easily move things around in a way that suits me any more, that is regression, not progression. Australis is the first time Mozilla have really committed to this approach with a new release.

Since your last post here is from 2010 it doesn't appear you attempted to contact anyone to help with your problem, certainly not the dev of CTR


Correct. I have better things to do with my time than try to sort through an ever expanding pile of conflicting addons, just because Mozilla has ripped yet more core functionality out of Firefox. Especially when the issue was solved in about 5 minutes with an installation and migration of Pale Moon.

You are using Firefox ESR and will likely face Australis no later then August of next year. These folks do exceeding little original programing and that isn't going to magically change.


And not to be blunt, that is an incredibly offensive and deeply disrespectful thing to say about someone who you have never met, never talked to and never conversed with. A blanket, sweeping statement that says that all none-Mozilla programmers are basically lazy slackers. Unbelievabe, just utterly unbelievable.

Oh, and lastly:

Why in 4 years is there so little difference?


Has it ever occurred that some people don't want a huge difference? If I did, I'd be using IE. I want Firefox, but with the ability to customise and tweak it properly. That's all. Pale Moon isn't a radically different browser, and believe it or not, that's intentional.

Frank Lion

User avatar
 
Posts: 20649
Joined: April 23rd, 2004, 6:59 pm
Location: ... The Exorcist....United Kingdom

Post Posted June 9th, 2014, 9:23 am

Trippynet wrote:
Why in 4 years is there so little difference?


Has it ever occurred that some people don't want a huge difference? If I did, I'd be using IE. I want Firefox, but with the ability to customise and tweak it properly. That's all. Pale Moon isn't a radically different browser, and believe it or not, that's intentional.

Total BS. Please don't lie to me, it irritates me.

The ability to customise and tweak Firefox was all there prior to Firefox 29.

...and believe it or not, that's intentional

Have a guess if I believe that.
Metal Lion latest SeaMonkey & Thunderbird Themes - Sea Monkey and Silver Sea Monkey
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke (attrib.)

LoudNoise
New Member

User avatar
 
Posts: 40048
Joined: October 18th, 2007, 1:45 pm
Location: Next door to the west

Post Posted June 9th, 2014, 9:24 am

Trippynet wrote:The developer seems confident that porting the current interface onto the updated engine code from the new ESR branch is entirely feasible, and I see no reason why this would be a problem. At the end of the day, Australis is merely the interface and changing an interface shouldn't be too big a deal, otherwise themes and extensions like CTR wouldn't exist.


Have you seen how much effort Aris has put into the extension or how much effort he continues to put into the extension?


You really need to learn the difference between fact and opinion. I'm aware that Pale Moon is Firefox in a frock, that's partly why I use it because I do like a lot about Firefox, just not the new interface and loss of customisation. As for whether it's better or not, sorry but that is entirely open to personal opinion. Personally, I consider Pale Moon to have all the main advantages of Firefox, but with a much better interface. Hence my own personal opinion is that Pale Moon is better than Firefox. That is not a fact, it's my opinion. The speed comments, that's open to debate and is not personally why I use Pale Moon.

The code base is the same. PaleMoon isn't a different project. That is a fact.

The UI changes between Version 2 and Version 3 and between Verion 3 and Version 4

Neither involved removing major batches of functionality however. I'm fine with browsers introducing new themes, new layouts etc. I'm not suggesting that browsers should just emulate Netscape 4 for the rest of eternity. However when a supposedly "new" version involves the forced removal of a lot of functionality such that I cannot easily move things around in a way that suits me any more, that is regression, not progression. Australis is the first time Mozilla have really committed to this approach with a new release.


Yes they did. Themes and extension had to be rewritten. Customization, like now, radically changed.

Since your last post here is from 2010 it doesn't appear you attempted to contact anyone to help with your problem, certainly not the dev of CTR


Correct. I have better things to do with my time than try to sort through an ever expanding pile of conflicting addons, just because Mozilla has ripped yet more core functionality out of Firefox. Especially when the issue was solved in about 5 minutes with an installation and migration of Pale Moon.


Our you could have spent ten minutes making changes to 29. This again assumes that you are not using extensions that have been abandoned.

You are using Firefox ESR and will likely face Australis no later then August of next year. These folks do exceeding little original programing and that isn't going to magically change.

And not to be blunt, that is an incredibly offensive and deeply disrespectful thing to say about someone who you have never met, never talked to and never conversed with. A blanket, sweeping statement that says that all none-Mozilla programmers are basically lazy slackers. Unbelievabe, just utterly unbelievable.

I am not certain why that is offensive. The PaleMoon folks have no track record of radically changing Firefox. To do what Mozilla is doing takes a lot of money and a fair number of people. I wouldn't undertake the project and there is no suggestions that these folks are slackers. It is simply a much larger project then you suspect.
Post wrangler
"Choose between the Food Select Feature or other Functions. If no food or function is chosen, Toast is the default."

Frank Lion

User avatar
 
Posts: 20649
Joined: April 23rd, 2004, 6:59 pm
Location: ... The Exorcist....United Kingdom

Post Posted June 9th, 2014, 10:11 am

This made me laugh and is a good example of how BS trips people up -

Trippynet wrote:
You are using Firefox ESR and will likely face Australis no later then August of next year. These folks do exceeding little original programing and that isn't going to magically change.


And not to be blunt, that is an incredibly offensive and deeply disrespectful thing to say about someone who you have never met, never talked to and never conversed with. A blanket, sweeping statement that says that all none-Mozilla programmers are basically lazy slackers. Unbelievabe, just utterly unbelievable.

Oh, and lastly:

Why in 4 years is there so little difference?


Has it ever occurred that some people don't want a huge difference? If I did, I'd be using IE. I want Firefox, but with the ability to customise and tweak it properly. That's all. Pale Moon isn't a radically different browser, and believe it or not, that's intentional.

Err, if it was intentional on the part of the developer to 'do exceeding little original programing', how can it also be 'incredibly offensive and deeply disrespectful' to point that out?

Seriously, guys, you should know by now. BS here and I will have you.
Metal Lion latest SeaMonkey & Thunderbird Themes - Sea Monkey and Silver Sea Monkey
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke (attrib.)

Trippynet

User avatar
 
Posts: 164
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 1:59 am

Post Posted June 9th, 2014, 12:00 pm

What I find interesting here is just how much disrespect and almost hatred you lot have towards modified releases such as Pale Moon. Every time someone so much as mentions it, there's an outpouring of FUD, disapproval and spitefulness which quickly goes from being balanced conversation to being really quite nasty in places.

I'd like to remind you all that one of Firefox's STRENGTHs is that it's FOSS. When you release the source like this, you're actively encouraging people to grab the source, play with it, tweak it and make it do things in different ways. And hence, you have different builds out there that look and behave a bit differently, but which still contain the core of Firefox underneath, and which adhere to Mozilla's licensing policies accordingly. This is something that you should be encouraging, not lambasting. Seriously, the attitude on here really is quite staggering at times.

Total BS. Please don't lie to me, it irritates me.

The ability to customise and tweak Firefox was all there prior to Firefox 29.


That comment is so laughable it beggars belief. What I said there was a fact, not a lie. I do want Firefox and I want Firefox's plugins. If I wanted a radically different browser such as Safari or IE, we wouldn't be having this discussion. To try and claim this is a lie is just staggering! Did you ever even ask yourself why I use Pale Moon out of all the browsers out there? And yes, prior to FF 29, Firefox was indeed very customisable (I never claimed otherwise). This (oddly enough) is one of the main reasons why I used it! I only dropped Firefox following the release of 29 after large portions of cusomisability that I used were stripped out and binned.

Have you seen how much effort Aris has put into the extension or how much effort he continues to put into the extension?


Given the sheer number of options and tweaks there, I'd say an awful lot. It's a very flexible and powerful addon indeed, however when using it with CustomTabWidth, the tabs overlap and the tab scroll buttons keep randomly appearing and disappearing. TabMixPlus also doesn't always play nice with it (or didn't when I last checked a couple of weeks back) as both do major things with the tabs. Might have been fixed since I admit, but wasn't last time when I was looking.

The code base is the same. PaleMoon isn't a different project. That is a fact.


If you really think that, why so much resentment and spite about me (and others) using "another build of Firefox"?

Yes they did. Themes and extension had to be rewritten. Customization, like now, radically changed.


And yet all the customisability remained. I could put the tabs where I wanted, the buttons where I wanted, etc. All of which could be done without installing a mountain of addons. As I've already said, I'm happy to see new interfaces, so long as I can tweak them a bit to suit how I work if I don't consider them optimal. Firefox 29 does NOT allow for this, Pale Moon does.

Our you could have spent ten minutes making changes to 29.


I did. I searched around, found CTR and installed that, I tried tweaking its options and also looked for solutions to the other problems I had. Granted I didn't post here, but I did stick with FF for another 2-3 weeks. However, it felt flaky and kludged. And when I found an alternative solution (Pale Moon) that just worked, I stopped messing around with alternative addons and used that instead. Why should I keep trying to bodge Firefox into shape when I have a solution in my hand?

The PaleMoon folks have no track record of radically changing Firefox. To do what Mozilla is doing takes a lot of money and a fair number of people. I wouldn't undertake the project and there is no suggestions that these folks are slackers. It is simply a much larger project then you suspect.


Err, if it was intentional on the part of the developer to 'do exceeding little original programing'


From different people I grant you, but herein lies the conundrum. To write a radically different browser requires a lot of money and programmers. I fully appreciate that. You cannot hope to remotely do what Mozilla does without a full team of dedicated developers. Pale Moon in contrast has one developer (who probably is not a full time programmer), yet because Pale Moon isn't radically different, he's accused of "doing exceedingly little original programming". Using these conflicting arguments, you cannot win (and this accusation is meant at this thread in general). Just keeping up with new Firefox releases, patching the bugs, porting the FF changes into the PM source code will be a regular and ongoing job, yet the developer is accused of being lazy just because you aren't seeing massively different changes and a radical departure from FF. Seriously, the guy cannot win here based on this conflicting logic!

Furthermore, you keep making sweeping accusations about whether or not PM can avoid Australis. You don't know, and to be honest neither do I. The developer says he will not implement it even after Firefox's new ESR is released. Until this statement is proved false, I will choose to believe it. You can believe differently, but you cannot just assume that you're right here. Individual developers have done much to change FF's looks with various addons, so it's perfectly possible for a single developer to do the same with the raw code.

Seriously, guys, you should know by now. BS here and I will have you.


And I will fire it right back at you. Let's be blunt, you have no idea how much programming the guy does. You are simply making a completely baseless and unfounded accusation and criticising the developer into the bargain. That is why it is disrespectful and offensive. If your arguments have any basis, tell me just how few lines of code get changed between PM and Firefox. Tell me how little time the developer spends on the project. Until you do, I will call YOUR accusations for the BS that they are.

If you want to call BS with me, explain a point where I'm actually wrong, why it's wrong, and back it up with some proof! Don't just fire out opinions and claim they're fact.

LoudNoise
New Member

User avatar
 
Posts: 40048
Joined: October 18th, 2007, 1:45 pm
Location: Next door to the west

Post Posted June 9th, 2014, 12:22 pm

Trippynet wrote:What I find interesting here is just how much disrespect and almost hatred you lot have towards modified releases such as Pale Moon. Every time someone so much as mentions it, there's an outpouring of FUD, disapproval and spitefulness which quickly goes from being balanced conversation to being really quite nasty in places.


You seem to mistake disagreement with disapproval and spitefulness. This isn't the case.

Have you seen how much effort Aris has put into the extension or how much effort he continues to put into the extension?

Given the sheer number of options and tweaks there, I'd say an awful lot. It's a very flexible and powerful addon indeed, however when using it with CustomTabWidth, the tabs overlap and the tab scroll buttons keep randomly appearing and disappearing. TabMixPlus also doesn't always play nice with it (or didn't when I last checked a couple of weeks back) as both do major things with the tabs. Might have been fixed since I admit, but wasn't last time when I was looking.


It does now since folks have asked for a number of improvements. I think he started it about three months before release. Given that time and the time he spends supporting it and things equal a great deal of time spent on it. If the PaleMoon folks are going to try to do the same thing in the actually code they will have to spend a greater amount of time in the project.

The code base is the same. PaleMoon isn't a different project. That is a fact.


If you really think that, why so much resentment and spite about me (and others) using "another build of Firefox"?

That is the fact, over ninety percent of the code is shared. I don't care what you use, I do care what you claim.

Yes they did. Themes and extension had to be rewritten. Customization, like now, radically changed.

And yet all the customisability remained. I could put the tabs where I wanted, the buttons where I wanted, etc. All of which could be done without installing a mountain of addons. As I've already said, I'm happy to see new interfaces, so long as I can tweak them a bit to suit how I work if I don't consider them optimal. Firefox 29 does NOT allow for this, Pale Moon does.

Most of the tweaks still exist, you simply have to do them differently. This includes using an extension or two.

Our you could have spent ten minutes making changes to 29.




The PaleMoon folks have no track record of radically changing Firefox. To do what Mozilla is doing takes a lot of money and a fair number of people. I wouldn't undertake the project and there is no suggestions that these folks are slackers. It is simply a much larger project then you suspect.


Err, if it was intentional on the part of the developer to 'do exceeding little original programing'

From different people I grant you, but herein lies the conundrum. To write a radically different browser requires a lot of money and programmers. I fully appreciate that. You cannot hope to remotely do what Mozilla does without a full team of dedicated developers. Pale Moon in contrast has one developer (who probably is not a full time programmer), yet because Pale Moon isn't radically different, he's accused of "doing exceedingly little original programming". Using these conflicting arguments, you cannot win (and this accusation is meant at this thread in general). Just keeping up with new Firefox releases, patching the bugs, porting the FF changes into the PM source code will be a regular and ongoing job, yet the developer is accused of being lazy just because you aren't seeing massively different changes and a radical departure from FF. Seriously, the guy cannot win here based on this conflicting logic!

I am not accusing the developer of anything other then the fact that since he is a single person he simply cannot support a different codebase. As far as I know, his intentions have been to offer a version of Firefox that is optimized to a specific OS. This isn't that involved.

Using these arguments is pointing out that he isn't likely to be able to main a folk.


Furthermore, you keep making sweeping accusations about whether or not PM can avoid Australis. You don't know, and to be honest neither do I. The developer says he will not implement it even after Firefox's new ESR is released. Until this statement is proved false, I will choose to believe it. You can believe differently, but you cannot just assume that you're right here. Individual developers have done much to change FF's looks with various addons, so it's perfectly possible for a single developer to do the same with the raw code.

And if he develops a new extension like CTR it will mean that he developed an extension

Seriously, guys, you should know by now. BS here and I will have you.


And I will fire it right back at you. Let's be blunt, you have no idea how much programming the guy does. You are simply making a completely baseless and unfounded accusation and criticising the developer into the bargain. That is why it is disrespectful and offensive. If your arguments have any basis, tell me just how few lines of code get changed between PM and Firefox. Tell me how little time the developer spends on the project. Until you do, I will call YOUR accusations for the BS that they are.

If you want to call BS with me, explain a point where I'm actually wrong, why it's wrong, and back it up with some proof! Don't just fire out opinions and claim they're fact.[/quote]
Post wrangler
"Choose between the Food Select Feature or other Functions. If no food or function is chosen, Toast is the default."

Gort

User avatar
 
Posts: 2342
Joined: February 2nd, 2003, 6:01 pm
Location: Sussex, UK

Post Posted June 9th, 2014, 12:23 pm

@ Trippynet

Have you ever considered SeaMonkey? No Australis and up to date (currently based on Firefox 29, not ESR). You'll notice that some of the posters on this thread actually posted with it. So, hatred for non-Firefox isn't necessarily the case. There's probably been a few too many PM fanboys coming here and taking a crap (not saying you are, BTW)

patrickjdempsey

User avatar
 
Posts: 23734
Joined: October 23rd, 2008, 11:43 am
Location: Asheville NC

Post Posted June 9th, 2014, 12:56 pm

And nobody is saying that PaleMoon absolutely *will not* be able to maintain a UI fork... just that it's exceedingly unlikely to be a success. It's also exceedingly unlikely that extensions and themes looking for certain features will continue to be compatible with a forked UI. And also exceedingly unlikely that extensions and theme authors will be able do anything about supporting a forked UI even if they wanted to because of the use of the Firefox GUID in PaleMoon. And I'm not really sure what the value is of a project that won't have the weight of the Firefox Addons ecosystem behind it. That's been the major "selling point" of most of these various builds over the years.
Tip of the day: If it has "toolbar" in the name, it's crap.
What my avatar is about: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/seamonkey/addon/sea-fox/

Kipary
 
Posts: 13
Joined: May 2nd, 2014, 10:57 am

Post Posted June 9th, 2014, 3:55 pm

Well, I drank the PaleMoon kool-aid too. The thing is, if CTR does not fix things for you, then the first thing you hear mentioned is PM. I had no idea ESR existed, and nowhere in the stickied topics does it mention it. The site itself does an incredible job advertising itself - you hear about how it's optimized for speed and stuff (I noticed no speed difference, btw), and it sounds like the solution to all things. And then you feel the need to post about this great discovery. It self-perpetuates.

There's an easy and helpful solution to this in that there needs to be a stickied topic on alternative builds that tells us about ESR, Seamonkey, and various ESR builds like PM. Even if many of these are only temporary solutions for a few months, many of us are totally okay with kicking the can down the road because by then, we may have enough extensions to fix everything we need. What I like about PM right now is that it doesn't conflict with my Firefox profile, so I can continue trying to fix my FF29, and I can copy my profile b/w the two theoretically. Someone did mention Firefox Portable recently, so maybe I can do something similar with that.

My main problem, btw, after I found out how to fix the Reload button (which is not obvious with CTR), is that I like my tabs set to 38 pixels each via Tab Mix Plus because I keep over 100 open at a time, spanning multiple rows. The new tab style takes up a lot more space even if I revert to square tabs with CTR.

LoudNoise
New Member

User avatar
 
Posts: 40048
Joined: October 18th, 2007, 1:45 pm
Location: Next door to the west

Post Posted June 9th, 2014, 4:17 pm

SeaMonkey has its own forum section here that includes support, builds, features and bugs. It should be easy enough to find and it is often mentioned.

ESR is mainly aimed at institutions and can have some issues that can make it a bit of a pain for individuals to use. ESR is only a good alternative in cases where things have changed and folks want to put off that change. For example, there would be no reason to bring it up when anything between 24 and 28 was released. It is better for folks to suggested it rather then the site to promote it.

Third party builders can post and support their wares here viewforum.php?f=42 and many of them do. We don't include third party builds in our FAQ for a number of reasons. First is the fact that the FAQs are release specific. Second, if we had an alternatives FAQ which ones would we list and how would it be maintained against compiles that ended or drop far enough behind to be an issue? Third, they are mostly the ESR that reflect a particular compiler's idea of what this is all about. Since we are not into the position to support all these third party builds we only suggest the stuff we know.
Post wrangler
"Choose between the Food Select Feature or other Functions. If no food or function is chosen, Toast is the default."

patrickjdempsey

User avatar
 
Posts: 23734
Joined: October 23rd, 2008, 11:43 am
Location: Asheville NC

Post Posted June 9th, 2014, 4:19 pm

We purposefully avoided mentioning ESR in the Australis stickies because it's not a solution to anything related to Australis. And we certainly don't want to be held responsible when users are shocked and upset all over again come October. You'll notice that most of the people recommending switching to ESR aren't long-term members of the forum, and they likely won't be still here when their bad advice comes around to bite people.
Tip of the day: If it has "toolbar" in the name, it's crap.
What my avatar is about: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/seamonkey/addon/sea-fox/

Return to Third Party/Unofficial Builds


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest